New main site; www.anon-poker-blog.com

Well, I've moved the main site from Wordpress to a domain of it's own; www.anon-poker-blog.com.

As to the degree that I continue to maintain this version of the site, I'm not sure. It began with two purposes in mind; to test Blogger software, and to collect the best-of postings. At this point I'm not sure how much value either objective has, but time will tell, I guess.

Best of PA: Poker terminology and abbreviations

(Original post date: June 3, 2008)

Some poker terminology and abbreviations, particularly as used in my blog posts. General focus is on Hold’Em games. Not everything is covered here, and explanations of how the game is played are only given where necessary to explain the definition of the term.

Term, Alternative names, (Abbreviation) - Definition

Before the hand:

• Blind - Amount that is required to be paid into the pot before any cards are dealt. Paid by players “in the blinds” or in both the big blind and small blind positions.
• Big Blind - the full blind cost
• Small Blind - 1/2 the blind cost. This may be a rounded amount. If the big blind is $0.25 the small blind may be either $0.10 or $0.15
• Ante - Additional amounts that must be paid by all players before the cards are dealt. Standard requirement for games such as Stud, but also applicable to Hold’Em tournaments in the later stages.

By seating position:

• Dealer, or Button - player who, in a home game, deals the cards to each player, starting with the player immediately to the dealer’s left. In a casino or on-line this player doesn’t actually deal the cards, but a circular piece (like a big button) with the letter “D” printed on it will be placed in front of this player to indicate who has the dealer position.
• Small blind (SB) - Player who gets the first card from the dealer. Before the cards are dealt, the SB must pay 1/2 the big blind cost into the pot
• Big blind (BB) - Player next after the SB. Before the cards are dealt, the BB must pay a full blind cost into the pot
• Under the gun (UTG) - Player next after the BB. After the cards are dealt, UTG is the first player who has to decide whether to call, fold, or raise.
• Under the gun+1 (UTG+1) - Next player after UTG
• Middle position 1 (MP1) - Next player after UTG+1
• Middle position 2 (MP2) - Next player after MP1
• Middle position 3, or Hijack (MP3) - Next player after MP2
• CutOff (CO) - Last person before the dealer

Positions closest to the dealer and the blinds are the most important for consideration, so when the table has fewer players, the position names from the middle are removed first. If the table has only 8 players, there will be no MP3. If only 7, no MP2. If only 6, no UTG+1. If only 5, no MP1.

Other table related:

• Late position, early position - Relative positioning term. Late might mean the hijack, cutoff and dealer, early might include UTG positions and the blinds.
• OOP - Out of position. Postflop the person who is OOP must act before other players that are also still in the hand.
• Short table - Fewer than the normal amount of players at the table. Can be used to refer to later in a tournament and some players have been knocked out or a ring game where there are fewer players at the game, either by accident or by design. Short tables mean that there are fewer hands to compete with so weaker hands will win, and generally you should be playing more frequently because the blinds will circulate the table more often.
• Orbit - Each full rotation of the dealer spot around the table is one orbit.

Rounds of cards/betting:

• Flop, or First street - Group of 3 community cards dealt face up
• Turn, or second street - Next community card, dealt face up
• River, or third street - Last community card, dealt face up. The term “street” is used more often in other games such as Stud where there are five streets.
• Preflop - The betting activity that occurs after the pocket cards have been dealt and before the flop is dealt.
• Postflop - Collective term referring to the flop, turn, and river, ie. anything that happens after the flop cards have been dealt out. Strategists sometimes focus separately on preflop and postflop play.
• Board - Generic name for whatever community cards have been dealt to that point. ie. “After the turn, the board showed both a flush and a straight draw”

Betting options:

• Raise - Increase the amount of money that your opponents must pay in order to continue in the hand
• Bet - same as a raise except this term applies only when no previous bet has been made. Once a bet has been made, any subsequent increase during the round is called a raise.
• Call - Putting the minimum amount of money into the pot in order to continue to play the hand. Preflop you must call the big blind, or call any raises that have been made before it gets to be your turn.
• Check - When you are not required to put any more money into a hand in order to continue, and you choose not to put more money in, then you check. This happens if you are in the BB preflop and there are no raises, or postflop and no one has made a bet yet.
• Fold - Decline to call and take no further part in the hand
• Re-raise - To raise a previous raise
• Min-Raise (MR) - To raise the minimum amount
• 3 -bet - To go to a third cost level in one round of betting. Preflop the blind amount is considered a bet. If someone raises the cost and then that amount is subsequently raised again, that re-raise is considered a 3-bet. Also could be called a re-raise.
• 4-bet - To make a fourth cost level in one round of betting. Also could be called a re-re-raise or a re-raise of the original raise.
• 3-bet light, 4-bet light - To make 3-bets or 4-bets with weaker cards than might ordinarily be expected. Done by aggressive players, especially when the table is short or the opposing players are weak.
• All-in, or shove, or push - To put all one’s remaining chips into the pot.
• Limp - To just call the blind preflop
• Muck - In a live game, the collection of cards that are out of play. When you fold your hand, you put them into the muck. Also used as a verb; if you lose you don’t have to show your cards and you “muck” them.

Other elements:

• Ring game, cash game - A poker game that is open for people to sit down and play whenever there is a vacant seat. Usually defined either by the blind costs; ie. $1/$2, or sometimes by 100 BBs which is often the maximum buy-in ie. $200.
• Tournament - a game where there is a set amount that you pay to play. All players are given the same amount of starting chips, and when you have no more chips you are eliminated. The player at the end who has all the chips is the winner.
• Rebuy tournament - A tournament where for a certain period of time you can rebuy chips. Often these play very loose and wild during the rebuy period as players take chances to try to build a big stack
• Satellite tournament (Satty)- A tournament where the prize is a seat in another bigger tournament.
• Sit and Go (SnG) - a tournament with a fixed number of players that starts whenever the full complement of players are signed up to play.
• Bubble - the point in a tournament when the next player to be eliminated is the last one who will not get money.
• ITM - In The Money. After the bubble is burst, all remaining players will some receive money.
• Stack - the amount of chips that each player has
• Big stack, small or short stack - a player with a larger than average amount, a player with less than the average amount. Similar to Deep Stack/Shallow Stack, though Deep Stack usually refers to ring games, specifically where all the players in a hand have at least 100 BBs.
• Buy-in - The amount of money that is exchanged for chips in order to play. At a ring game there will often be a minimum and a maximum buy-in. At a tournament there will be a fixed amount to buy-in in order to play.
• Rebuy - to buy more chips to play with. In a ring game this happens whenever a player wants to have some more chips to play with up to the table maximum. This is not allowed in tournaments unless it is a special rebuy tournament.
• Multitabler - Online players who play more than one table at the same time.

Playing styles:

• Tight - Plays few hands preflop
• Loose - Plays many hands preflop
• Aggressive - Bets or raises often rather than calling
• Passive - Calls often rather than betting or raising
• Weak - Folds to bets or raises often
• Maniac - Raises/bets often no matter how strong his hand is
• TAG - Tight-Aggressive player. Plays only his best hands preflop and then is aggressive with them. Best style for beginners as it helps to keep them out of difficult situations while getting value for the good hands.
• LAG - Loose-Aggressive player. Plays many hand preflop and is aggressive with them. Makes it difficult for his opponents to determine when he really has a premium hand. Wins many small pots with his aggression and also wins big with his premium hands because his opponent’s may believe he is bluffing.
• Calling station - Rarely folds to bets or raises.
• Nit - Plays only the most premium hands. Often very aggressive with them. Often multitabling. When they raise call them with pocket pairs or suited connectors as they’re likely only playing big pairs or AK, maybe AQ. May be able to push them off dangerous boards.

PokerTracker abbreviations:

• VP$IP - Voluntarily Put $ In Pot. Percentage of times that the player put money into the pot voluntarily preflop. Does not include the BB if just checked, but does include completing from the SB. A tight player has a low VP$IP, a loose player has a high VP$IP.
• PFR - Preflop Raise. Percentage of times that the player raises preflop when he plays.

Other abbreviations:

• OESD - Open ended straight draw. If you have 98 and the flop is T72, a J or 6 will give you a straight, so the draw is open at both ends.

Odds of winning against 1, 2, 3, or 4 random hands

(Original post date: October 26, 2007)

I saw a site which sells a preflop poker hand odds calculator. Its a hand-held calculator, and “keeps you from cluttering you screen while you play”, or something like that.

Here’s my preflop hand calculator.

(Click to view proper size)

Pairs are listed on the left, then Ace-high hands, King-high hands, across to Jacks, then underneath the Jacks are Ten high hands, and back the other way. My version also does not clutter your screen if you print it out and have it by your keyboard. Do not tape to the front of your monitor unless you want it to clutter your screen. :)

Be aware that this chart (or the expensive calculator as well!) is only useful in certain situations. Most commonly, late in a SnG when the blinds are getting higher and you have to decide whether or not to steal or possibly to push. Sitting in the SB, 5 handed, folded to you, you and the BB have 12 BBs, you hold Q8s, 58% chance of winning against an unknown hand, push.

The other possible situation is perhaps in the SB in ring games, folded to you, and you want to consider how good your hand is relative to the BB, but then you need to consider some of the aspects listed here.

If you’re not familiar with this chart or some version of it, take a look at how even the top pairs and especially AKs/o and AQs/o fare against 1, then 2, then 3 random hands. And these are just random hands, not raise-calling hands like TT but any hand at all, which is exactly what the BB and SB might have if you don’t raise preflop. This is one of the reasons why you raise AK and AQ in position preflop.

There. This is another of my contributions to the anti-commercialism of the internet. I’ve made other such contributions in areas where I have much more experience, but listing them here would serve to uncloak my anonymity. This information is not unique, and you can find other versions throughout the internet, but I like this compact format.

Completed project: 40 x $1 Turbo Sit and Goes

(Original post date: February 11, 2008)

I’ve completed the 40 $1 Turbo Sit and Go project that I was running on Full Tilt.

Statistical results first.

• Cost of buy-ins: $50.00 ( $1.25 x 40)
• Gross profit: $74.70
• Net profit: $24.70; average $0.62, so for every $1.25 it cost me to play, I gained .62
• ROI: 49%
• ITMs: 24 of 40, or 60.0% (paid 1, 2, 3 places)
• 1st: 9
• 2nd: 8
• 3rd: 7
• 4th: 4
• 5th: 5
• 6th: 1
• 7th: 4
• 8th: 2
• 9th: 0
• Average finish: 3.43

That last stat is the most meaningless one, though perhaps it’s worth noting that I finished 9th zero times and 8th twice. The first 8th place finish was one of the first tight tables I encountered and it caught me by surprise. That plus being card dead led me to shove 55 with a stack of 770 when the blinds were already 80/160. The other I shoved after waiting for quite a while to pick up cards, after having lost a big portion of my stack much earlier. I had raised AK from UTG and got 4 callers (!). I could have dropped the hand except I picked up a flush draw with my K and called down with 2 others not knowing I was drawing dead with the A7 of the suit already holding the nut flush.

Strategy-wise what I learned is:

1. In the early rounds (until the blinds get to 50/100 or so) play tight and somewhat passive. Only raise JJ/QQ/KK/AA/AK, and do it from almost any position, and do it when you have limpers ahead (4XBB + 1 for each limper though). Limp AT/AJ/KQ/QJ/66/77/88/99/TT from any position. You might be able to raise some of these second category hands on the rare occassion that you are in late position and no one has limped ahead of you, but that’s going to be very rare. These games are full of limp/callers so unless you have a monster there’s no point raising, and c-bets of missed flops often get called with bottom pair or draws. These players don’t understand pot odds either, so don’t assume they know that you didn’t give them odds to chase.
2. Basically, try not to play any hands unless you have a monster, are in late position with a drawing hand, or are in the blinds.
3. Look for players who call preflop raises with weak holdings, and those that call raises often, as well as those who call infrequently. You need to know this the rest of the way to target the non-callers to steal their blinds and avoid the callers.
4. Look for betting traits. Some bet at any flop that no one has shown any interest in. Some love to slowplay. Some bet/call boards whenever they hold an Ace. Some get very aggressive with top pair/no kicker. Unfortunately the very worst often get knocked out first, although some get lucky and build big stacks for you to target later.
5. When you catch a flop you may want to shove 2 pair/sets as you will get called by top pair/no kicker or draws. And you may want to shove to a raise of your flop bet with top pair/good kicker as the raise may mean top pair/any kicker. However if you have a draw (OESD or flush draw) don’t think that they won’t look you up with overcards if you bet or even shove even if it’s late and your bet represents all or most of their stack.
6. Survival is key. If I can get to blinds of 50/100 and I have 850 or more chips, I’m okay ’cause I can outplay the opposition from that point on. Better yet is if I can pick up one or two small pots and cruise into the next phase with 2,000 chips.

Things should change when the blinds get up to 50/100 or so, but most players don’t make adjustments. You can’t keep limping, and if you’re down to 1,000 you have 10X BBs so you should shove any hand that you are going to play unless you are in the blinds. The table has also probably lost a number of players so you are competing against fewer hands so your starting hand requirements should go down, but, since you should be only raising/shoving, your requirements need to adjust. AT/AJ/KQs become big hands that need to be raised (or shoved if you have less than 10 BBs). This is where your earlier analysis on player’s preflop raise call percentages comes into play as you use this information, plus stack sizes, to determine when to shove.

Sometimes it’s amazing how long these players will hang on as the blind sizes become big, and then huge. People still want to limp in even when there are 3 or 4 people left with average stacks of 3,000 but the blinds are 400/800. Or even later with 2 or 3, stacks of 4,000 but the blinds are 500/1000. Some overvalue connectors like JT/78 ect, probably because of talk about their playability, but that playablilty refers to when stacks are big and you’ve got implied odds, not when calling a shove for 3/4 of your chips. People who shove, or worse yet call with these hands don’t understand short table/high blind situations. It’s fine to shove any cards if you think the chance is good that you’re going to collect the blinds, but not into a big stack who has a loose calling range, and you definitely don’t call off a large portion of your stack with them.

And others are reaaallly weak/tight, open limping AJ from the button for example. Or heads up and just calling, hoping to see a flop when the blinds are 20% of both player’s stacks.

Other things to note: there was a definite change in play when the site offerred it’s bonus promotion. The tables became noticably tighter but still beatable. In the very last game one player played no hands until his chips got down to 1,000 and the blinds 100, and then started shoving as his only play, and shoved every orbit or whenever he saw limped pots. I looked him up on Sharkscope. A 9% ROI, 488 games played, but he’s played multiple tables registering every 2-5 minutes for a new one. Quite possibly someone who normally doesn’t play at this level multitabling to earn bonus points, although from what I could see of his recent results he’s only breaking even. I guess if he’s doing it to collect the bonus that still might work out in his favor.

It’s interesting that the ITM rate is better than the bet/raise/fold experiment, but that may be largely a function of the turbo nature more than play money vrs real money, the site difference, or the handcuffing of the bet/raise/fold restriction. Basically the reason I didn’t finish 6th or lower very often is because I waited for people to knock themselves out. The turbo nature, plus possibly the high level play money patience levels might be the primary reason for this. The difference is not great, but I suspect it would have been bigger if the site had not run a promotion during this experiment.

Unfortunately I’m not willing to do a full explanation of how I played these, like my choices of shoving hands or how to play heads up. This blog is written mostly for myself, or for someone who plays at my level who can apply the general concepts themselves.

Tight/Passive/Aggressive?

(Original post date: October 2, 2007)

I’m beginning to wonder whether the way to play low, low levels is to play tight/passive/aggressive. In other words, tight preflop hand selection, but only raise Sklansky’s top level hands, or late with no limpers, or from the blinds in a blind war. At the moment I seem to be having more success playing this way. I might even move more towards slightly-loose preflop with this, limping behind with any hand that has drawing potential.

The reason is that aggression doesn’t work against these players is because they don’t seem to recognize what it represents or what position aggression puts them in. The theory with playing with aggression is you raise preflop, chase out weak hands, c-bet at flops and the opposition can’t call unless they’ve caught a good draw or a big piece of the flop. In reality at these low levels a preflop raise doesn’t chase all the weak hands, and bets at the flop won’t fold the missed hands; they’ll keep calling with overcards or bottom pair. Plus, they interpret any attempt at pot control by checking the turn/river as weakness and they’ll bet at it. You’re left sitting with what was top pair on the flop, but now you don’t know whether they are idiots thinking you bluffed at the flop or they actually caught a second pair or filled up their gutshot straight. At the same time if you bet the turn, they’ll still call and you’ve bloated the pot and you still aren’t sure where they are. Worse yet, if a higher card, especially an Ace, comes on the turn or river, there’s a chance they hit what they were drawing for.

Yesterday on Full Tilt as an example I made money from one player when I bet with top pair at a flop. He called, I checked the turn, checked the river for pot control but he apparently took this as weakness and bet at the river with nothing, so I called and won. Later I raised with AQ, c-bet the low flop, checked the turn, and he throws out a pot bet at the river. I still had nothing so I folded, but I think this is his auto response to my not betting the turn and river. Likely the preflop call and flop call were almost as automatic.

In the SnG versions of this I’ve been caught in blind wars betting at flops like K94 thinking it’s unlikely they can call but they do, and go to show down having paired the 4. I don’t think it’s players having a read on me as being aggressive because at this point I’ve played very few hands, they just don’t know how to play, so preflop raises, c-bets, any kind of bet that not backed by a made hand is throwing chips away.

~

They say playing at low levels means playing straightforward, not using moves because the players won’t recognize what the moves represent. I didn’t think that it also meant don’t raise with good drawing hands, and don’t c-bet when you raised preflop. I thought that these were so basic that they would work no matter what level I was playing at. Apparently not.

I should probably keep in mind that most of these players have never heard of continuation bets or pot control, so there’s no reason to expect that they would respect them. The more I think about this, the more this makes sense. There is probably a significant percentage of players that I’m up against here who are virtually self-taught, not even having read a book or looked at an internet site so they see my preflop raise and think, “Hmm, he says he has something, but he might be bluffing and I have an Ace …”

Or when I bet at the flop having raised preflop, “He has something, or he might be bluffing, and I’ve got a pair with that 4 on the table … “

And they see that I never min-raise/minbet, so they might interpret that as “He’s just a big gambler. Why else would he always bet that much instead of just raising?”

It’s starting to make sense; I’m playing by different rules, using a different language than they’re using.

~

And, of course, I wonder what effect this has on my overall development as a poker player. Instead of moving up and playing against better competition I’ve lowered myself (apparently more than I expected) and have to restrict my playing style in order to be successful. Why not move back up? Because I’m still under the larger project of playing at a new site to earn the first deposit bonus. Playing at my old level on the new site puts that bankroll at risk since at the moment I would have less than three full buyins.

No limit Hold'Em; another beginners strategy. Part 1: Preflop hand selection

(Original post date: August 31, 2007)

Let’s see if I can write a beginner strategy. This will help me to solidify my own base-basic game plan.

~

This is written for you if you’re planning to join a home game, a company fundraiser, to play some play money online, or trying the micro tables. If you’re playing a tournament (MTT; multi table tournament), Sit and Go (SnG, or STT; single table tournament), or a freeroll, these basics can still apply, but, need some modification for when the blinds increase.

First, seating position and their names. This changes every hand because position is labeled relative to who is the dealer. The small blind (SB) and big blind (BB) are immediately to the left of the dealer and have to post their blinds before the dealing begins. The spots immediately after the blinds are called under-the-gun (UTG) and under-the-gun plus one (UTG+1). Next are the middle position spots, MP, MP+1 and MP+2. These are followed by the late positions, the cutoff (CO, the position immediately to the right of the dealer) and the button (the dealer).

SB, BB, UTG and UTG+1 are considered “early position“. UTG and UTG+1 have the disadvantage of having to make the first plays preflop, as well as first after the SB and BB on the flop, turn, and river. This disadvantage means you can only play the best hands from UTG and UTG+1. Moving to middle and then to late positions you can play progressively weaker and weaker starting cards because 1) there are fewer players after you that might have even bigger hands, and 2) you get to bet after the earlier positions so you get to see what they do before you have to decide. SB and BB are special early positions because you already have some money committed to the pot, and we’ll consider them separately.

So, from early position (UTG and UTG+1) play only:

AA / KK / QQ / AK

From middle position play all the early position hands, plus:

JJ / TT / AQ / AJ

From late position, all the early and middle position hands, plus:

99 / 88 / 77 / AT / KQ / KJ

(Note that for simplicity I have not considered whether or not the cards are of the same suit or not. In reality, being suited adds only a small winning percentage to the relative value of the cards and is often highly overvalued by beginners.)

All of these starting hands assume that 1) no one else other than the blinds have put any money into the pot, and 2) you are going to raise with your hand. You should raise to 3 or 4 times the big blind, so if the big blind is 0.10, put in 0.30 or 0.40. By doing so, you 1) make it costly for weak hands after you to play, 2) announce to the table that you have a good hand and a high expectation of winning this hand. This puts the pressure on anyone deciding to play; you have the hand to beat.

Gap Concept

What if someone else ahead of you has already raised? The gap concept says that in order for you to play, you need to have at least as good a hand as you would have raised with in the raiser’s position. In other words, if a player in MP+1 raises, he should be only raising with early position cards (AA/KK/QQ/AK) or middle position cards (JJ/TT/AQ/AJ) and in order for you to call you have to have cards that you would play only from that same position. This is because he has announced that he has a good hand, so if you are going to play, you need to be able to compete with this hand. Makes sense, if the opponent raises from MP+1, that means he’s saying he has AA/KK/QQ/AK/JJ/TT/AQ/AJ, so if you are in late postion, you should not call his raise if you have AT because you’re likely to lose. Just imagine that an Ace is the high card on the flop and you think, good, I hit top pair, but your opponent is betting with AQ thinking, why does this person not understand he’s beat? (In this situation if MP+1 has KK/QQ/JJ/TT you are winning, but pocket pairs occur much less frequently than non-paired pockets. Playing the flop, turn and river will, hopefully, be a later entry)

Limped pots

In reality at home games or at play money or micro limit on-line poker people will play very loose (meaning they play more hands than I’ve listed) and weak (meaning they almost never raise). This means that often when in middle or late position you’ll be faced with 2, 3, 4 or more people already on the pot who haven’t raised but instead just called the big blind. This is called limping. When this happens, I recommend that if you have a first position hand (AA/KK/QQ/AK), raise, but instead of raising 3 - 4 times the blind, raise 4 plus one more for each limper. If you have 2 limpers ahead of you, raise 4 + 2 = 6 times the blind. The reason for this is that each limper has increased the size of the pot, so in order for you to create a situation that they are not getting good odds to call, you have to make the bet higher.

If you have middle or late position types of hands and there are 2 or more limpers ahead of you, just call. I find that in these situations raising often does not chase all the weak hands from the pot, which is fine if you have one of the top hands, but can be tricky when you have a slightly lesser hand. Call and see what happens on the flop.

Playing from the blinds

I’ve left this section until now because some concepts from the intervening sections apply to playing from the blinds. From the BB, obviously if no-one raises you can check and see the flop cards for no additional cost. From the SB, if you have 2 or more limpers in before you, then it only costs you 1/2 a big blind more to see the flop, and you should do so with almost any except the worst hands. If you have decent hand, say one that is in the list of hands to play from late position, you can call with one limper. If you have a hand that should be played from early or middle position and there’s no or maybe one limper, raise, and hope to take down the hand preflop, but remember the rule for raising when there are limpers; 4 times the big blind plus one for each limper.

What if someone raises, and you have a good hand? Remember that the blinds will be first to act on the flop, turn, and river, so all the other players with have an advantage over you. Use the recommended hands for the early postion hands and don’t call a raise from someone without AA/KK/QQ/AK. In fact, re-raise their bet with these hands, because you have a premium hand plus you will be out of position during subsequent betting. Hopefully they will realize that they are at risk and will fold.

Playing tight

All of this advice is all based on the concept of playing tight, positional poker preflop. This is by far the easiest way for a beginner to start, for the simple reason that you play only good value hands relative to your position. By playing only good value starting hands in good position you keep yourself from getting into too many difficult situations later on.

~

Note: This entry has been edited at a later date because this seems to be a popular entry to view. If you have question/comments, please feel free to post in the comment section.

I’ve never gotten around to posting follow up entries to this. I’d recommend the following to beginners:

• Tight/passive/aggressive
• Fear of raising series, but start at the first entry which will be at the bottom

Re-restarting the blog

Well, I tried to do some behind-the-scenes administrative tweaks by deleting the blog and restarting it, but apparently that was doomed to failure.

To re-introduce the blog, I am PokerAnon, of the blog by the same name at the other blogging website. My plan is to use this blog as a "Best Of" summary while testing to see which blogging platform I prefer.

"Best Of" is a subjective categorization, but I intend it to mean some combination of most popular, personal favorites and most useful information.



So, my apologies if you got to this blog via a search or link to the old postings. The old postings are probably here somewhere, just not exactly where they used to be.